El PNEyP: Plan Nacional de Educación y Patrimonio.

Amal was the only participant who had not participated in an NZAID scholarship scheme. However, she had previously taken up another kind of development scholarship to complete a postgraduate diploma in Europe. She comes from a country classified by the United Nations as one of the world’s ‘least developed’ nations. Rates of female participation in higher education within her country, although now rising rapidly, have traditionally been very low. She was the first woman in her village to go to university. Amal’s story charts her transition from forestry scientist to development practitioner. She talks about the ways in which the opportunities she got early in her career to travel and meet with people led to a shift in interest away from “watching the plants grow’” towards a concern with the social and economic needs of communities. She recalls her first postgraduate degree, completed locally, as an opportunity to learn more about how history and culture shape the resource management priorities of a community. She recalls her second postgraduate degree, this time completed abroad, as another time in which she was she pushed to enlarge her understandings of community – this time by experiencing first-hand the commonalities that exist between diverse cultures on a global scale.

Gender weaves in and out of her narrative; most often as a treatise on the importance and the rewards of bravery in women’s lives. It also emerges later in her discussion about life in New Zealand, and the tiredness and frustration that result from her efforts to adjust to the increased domestic responsibilities that have accompanied her decision to undertake PhD study overseas. Finally, in our second interview we talked a little bit about the perceptions people have about the impact of development scholarship schemes. She shared her thoughts on the reception that those who participate in these schemes receive when they return home, and why she thinks the scholarship experience can be useful.

Beginnings

I am one of the first three women foresters. Many people were supporting us, you know.

Some people they were, not suspicious, but they were scared,

because the men, normally, the foresters, they go and camp beside the forest,

and they travel long distances, and spend a long time in the camp, whatever the conditions.

You have to accept hard conditions. So they found it hard.

It is not a matter of not accepting women within the sector, it’s about worry. They were worried that we might not cope with these conditions.

This was before I did my Masters. But it shaped my life later.

Because the two of us, we struggled a lot to be part of the team that could travel around and visit all the forests, and make a revision plan for all the forests.

And, as a result, the directors, the senior staff within the department, they felt that we were capable.

So me and my colleague, the other female, we actually got a chance to go before the other men within the department,

just because we were challenging the situation.

But my main experience was that that was the best time in my life. Travelling for month after month after month;

sleeping in the villages;

living in the forest, inside the forest; doing measurements;

mixing with people.

Because, you know, studying in forestry, you feel that you are sticking to a kind of science.

It’s different to mixing with people.

But when I travelled there I found an opportunity to live in the villages.

And when I got a chance to mix with communities in the villages, I started to think that I needed to do something different. It’s not just about forests and plants and things like that. You have to involve these people.

So, I did my Masters on socio-economic aspects of forestry and agriculture together. And I did it within a community that had been transferred from the north,

far away from their homeland. You can feel the people struggling, and I learnt a lot from them. They have a different culture. They have different views.

They have not accepted what has happened to them.

Although they have been living there for maybe thirty years, they are not happy with being transferred from their homeland where they used to live for thousands of years. And they don’t want to change.

I finished my Masters in a short time, one and a half years, and I got high, high grades. So I was given a scholarship to complete an international diploma abroad.

The people were from twenty countries or more, and we travelled a lot. We met people from different cultures.

It was all about mixing with people, and learning from their experiences.

And I started to feel that I was learning similar things from people when they reflected on their own experiences, as I had learnt mixing with local people within my country. Actually, I started to lose the sense that I only belonged to my country.

You lose the feeling that you should stick to one culture, one country. You get the feeling that there is something bigger.

You are connected with anyone, with any place.

You get my idea?

I remember, when I travelled overseas to work, I would always get the feeling that this area belongs to me, and I belong to them.

I felt all the time that I should give to them, as if I was in my home village. Even when you are sleeping,

you start to dream or think about what we can do, together, to do something good for them.

Coming home

I guess my study was good because it integrated many different things.

I think that if I stuck to forestry only, and I stuck to working in a nursery, watching the plants grow - the temperature is this, the soils are mixed sand or clay or clay and sand or measurements, or whatever - I don’t think I would have developed that kind of thinking. I developed because I mixed with people from different cultures,

with different opinions. It challenged my mind, my experience,

my thinking,

my views about people.

So when I returned back from my study, I initiated - me and a group of people - we started a forestry extension project.

We tried to develop a kind of relationship between the communities and forest, to encourage the people to start their own forests.

We introduced this community concept.

I guess from there, I feel that my life started to change. I wasn’t dealing only with a forestry plantation,

I was dealing with a community’s needs, priorities, and involving them with these resources.

Sometimes I would go to a community, and I would find myself talking about forestry plantations, certification, and the people were suffering.

They didn’t have health services; they didn’t have water,

So, I found myself, even if the project was watershed management, for example, or tree planting activities, I would find myself doing many, many other things in a community, rather than what had been planned on paper.

I think, within the community, the most important thing is just to have an open mind, not to go in with a fixed idea.

Like, ‘I’m going to do this for you, and I’m am not going to let you be part of it, or change it, or adjust it.’

I think you feel satisfied.

You feel happy about what you did

Because, as a result of your intentions, and your efforts, many positive things can happen,

and in a very short time.

You will always feel that you are part of their lives.

I think that when you start to communicate with people, the people will feel that you are sincere, if you have good intentions and you are willing to help them.

I feel, always, I end with having something positive coming out from any programme I am involved in.

I always feel that at the end of the day, or the end of the week,

or the end of the month,

something positive has come out of it.

Women and courage

Yeah, my father, actually, he used to think a lot about getting higher degrees, or becoming something special.

You have to be someone who is special.

I remember the people in our community, they preferred the males, the boys, more than the girls, definitely.

But, I was the eldest in my family, and I was always supported by him and told that, I am one who is special,

So, although we lived in a small village, and I was the first to enter the university in my village, all the time I got support, and I was told that I was someone who is supposed to do something special.

So, I think that helped me to feel brave.

I think, especially in developing countries, the women, they are not brave enough to face reality.

They don’t trust themselves much.

And I think this can also influence what topic they select to study.

Some women they select a topic that will be easy, or will not challenge any situation. Because, I remember, when we were three ladies, and we joined the forestry department, one of us decided to go to the easiest department within the corporation.

She just chose a job that involved doing work in the office, and staying in the capital and never, ever travelling around.

I think some women choose research that is easy, too.

For example, when I did my Masters degree, I choose to go to this community.

I did a lot of reading, and I felt excited about going to this community and seeing what was going on.

But, I don’t remember any other women choosing to go to the rural areas, far away. Very few

.

Most of them they went to the factories to see the waste discharge from the factories into the river, or something else in the capital.

And I think that influences their work in the future, too.

Because if they know that you just hide in your office, then they will not put you in a challenging situation.

Sometimes this is the difference with women.

Sometimes you feel the women, they don’t present themselves as capable. Either they are very scared or very protective of themselves, or traditions. I think sometimes it is an internal feeling.

And that will be reflected in their performance.

And later on they will say, ‘she is not capable, she is not working seriously, I am not going to propose her for a scholarship’.

I guess that is fair enough.

When you come and see, and say ‘oh, those people they sent males only for this scholarship’,

or ‘they gave it for males only’, I think that could be the reason.

Because I met many, many women in my country, and I notice that they don’t send them because they are not capable.

And even if they finish their study, they might not be very useful when they come back. Who is going to benefit from them if they are stuck inside the office, and the capital? In my own experience, I didn’t face anyone who tried to stop me, because I am a woman, no.

Sometimes you even get support because you are a woman and you are a pioneer in your profession

Sometimes, you find yourself travelling abroad,

or inside your country you get to represent your corporation alongside those who are higher up than you and twenty years older than you.

But you have to be very brave, and you have to be capable.

Thesis life in New Zealand

I find, actually, that life here is very tiring.

I feel that, although I am not working, the time is just running. You spend a lot of time doing work at home,

and shopping, and helping the kids.

And you don’t feel very productive.

The bad thing is that if you come from a career where you are used to working, and being involved with people, and making some achievements, you are used to having something you can really see.

And then you come here,

cooking, and doing the same thing today, and tomorrow,

and the day after tomorrow. You feel very frustrated, and it’s depressing.

I think that the traditions we have in a society are very important. Because, in each community,

in most communities, actually,

they have this problem of the division of labour between men and women, and their different obligations.

Even in my country, you find, even for me,

I find that for myself, I have a lot of obligations.

For example, my husband, although we are comparatively open or free in terms of understanding this kind of gender stuff, but, still,

women, they have a lot of obligations, a lot more responsibilities than men.

Even if you are a Minister - you are a woman, and you are a Minister - you still have obligations inside the house.

Housework is women’s stuff. It is her responsibility,

even if you are a Minister.

So, you find yourself under a lot of pressure. You have to do a lot of work.

I think in my country, the people, now, they don’t have problems at the community level, but they still have problems at the household level, in terms of women’s responsibilities. Within the community, it depends on your own career, and your personality.

The people they appreciate that their girls are on top,

that their girls achieve high scores during the exams for the universities.

But, at the family level, or the household level, you will find the same obligations or responsibilities.

The other thing is, in most developing countries, either you have extended family or you have your neighbourhood or friendships.

The people are very close to each other.

So, there is a lot of voluntary stuff between people. People, I think that they share helping each other.

And because of poverty, also, you can find many people who can work in your home for a reasonable payment.

So women, they can overcome these difficulties. Not like here.

Education and expectation

I did my study in Europe, and many people in my country talk about, you know, ‘those people, we sent them to Europe, and they didn’t benefit from it’

‘Yeah, they didn’t change their ideas’.

‘They are supposed to go there, and learn from them how they developed their countries, and how they interact’.

For example, the people in my country like the titles very much.

Like, if you have a PhD, you can’t bear to call someone their name and not to put this ‘Dr’ in front of it.

You can’t do that.

That is the hardest thing in developing countries, if you have status, you like to be treated like a king. Which is bad.

You can never feel at ease.

People will not be able to exchange ideas, or be brave enough to propose something or do something without giving something back to those who have higher status.

But if the people who go to study abroad, if they are able to get rid of this kind of belief or behaviour or practice, it could be good.

The people will like it.

Are you willing to pick up the good things, or do you want to stick to the old bad things, which the people don’t like?

he didn’t change, she didn’t change.

‘You went there, but you didn’t learn anything.’ ‘You didn’t change’.

They want them to change.

And, actually, people, sometimes, they joke about this.

For example, in my country, people, they say, ‘oh, we always give the name John to someone who is European.’

Any European is called John.

So for them, when someone comes back from overseas, he becomes ‘Mr John’. ‘Mr John is ready for you.’

‘Mr John is coming to visit our office’.

They gave him the name because they believe he has become like white people, so, now he is Mr John.

It’s funny.

But they don’t mean it.

Actually the people, they admire it very much, if you change to become something good.

Filling the gap

For someone who is going to work in the field of development as a planner or a fieldworker, or whatever, I think a higher degree is very important.

Higher education, it will fill the gap - the gap between theory and practice. Because always with development you have problems.

The theories are very wonderful, they are ideals, but the practice is far behind.

So, to fill that gap, you need to come and do this part, which is a missing part in your career.

You need to find a way to think about how you are going to do this by yourself, when you go and practice.

And you have to relate what you are going to do in the field with what you study and analyse.

Now, if I go back to do fieldwork with people or communities, I will have different perspectives.

You need to fill the gap between the theory and practice. You need to fill this gap in your mind.

Discussion

Amal talks at length about the importance and rewards of being intrepid. She discusses her early battles to gain acceptance as a forester – as a woman who travels and works within a male dominated field – and how these battles opened up a new world to her. She describes these career adventures as the ‘best time in my life’. From a life of science

In document Educación patrimonial y diversidad: Evaluación de programas y definición de un modelo basado en los procesos de Patrimonialización (página 192-196)