Roger González and Chano Domínguez
Roger González: What is Latin Jazz?
Chano Domínguez: I think that “What is Latin Jazz?” is a question that we
could spend hours discussing. However for me, really I believe it can be resumed into something quite simple. That it is the expression of the musicians with this common language Spanish (Castillian), and it is the creative expression of Latin musicians.
The creative expression of Jazz has clearly impregnated all today’s music. I believe that Jazz is a music that is quasi corrosive. It has influenced all of
the music because it has a peculiarity to give, to open the doors for you to create with this (musical) language, in an instant. And this, the Latin
musicians, we use it with our set of rhythms (claves) and with our roots. In other words, for me, from my perspective as a Latin musician born in Spain, in the south of Spain, with everything that that influences me, being born and brought up around all the Flamenco rhythms, like I have been brought up with them. For me, this is the most natural thing in the world.
But, I am a musician that loves improvisation, and this is what brought me to Jazz, improvisation. And this is what brought me closer to this music, to write in this language that I have thought indispensable for my music. But of course, my music is a Jazz, with Latin notions from this side of the Atlantic.
From the other side of the Atlantic you have musicians such as Jerry Gonzalez that have truly succeeded in capturing the essence of the
rhythms and the claves of his origins with the formal structures of Jazz, the songs of 32 bars, the blues, the music of Monk. All this I believe is such a natural progression.
With Jazz, if Latin musicians play Jazz it shall be Latin Jazz. If it is played by an Anglo-Saxon it shall be British Jazz. If it is played by an African musician it shall be African Jazz because it is like what I said at the beginning, for me Jazz is a music that has impregnated all the music that is played today. From Flamenco, to Indian music, African music, Brazilian music, there is a heap of styles that have been nourished by Jazz.
RG: Many people, when they think of Latin Jazz, they think of the Afro
Cuban base, and sitting on top is the Jazz harmonies. But it is much more than that no?
on defining me as a Flamenco pianist, I don’t think I am. What I am is a Jazz musician that uses the claves of my country. And I think that the claves from my country are so powerful that they also nourish Jazz in this way as well.
In other words, it has the peculiarity that on the surface it might not seem that it has much to do with the Jazz from the other side of the Atlantic. But I believe if we look deeper we realise that there is, in truth, many similarities with certain types of rhythms and structures of songs or common phrases in Flamenco and music created in the Caribbean that has been created in Cuba and in everything Afro Cuban.
RG: I would like to talk about the rhythms that are similar between
Flamenco and Afro Cuban music a little bit later. But first, I wanted to ask you about percussion, the importance of percussion within Latin Jazz and within Flamenco?
CD: Well, I think that the percussion within Latin music and within
Flamenco is indispensable. In other words, in Flamenco there are some rhythms, and there are some claves, which are not many, but afterwards they are used in a different form and this is what gives a rhythmic entity that is strong for each rhythm of Flamenco. This is indispensable in my music. For example, my music without the Flamenco claves would not be my music. It would not be recognisable. I mean the importance of the rhythms is the clave. So key that this is why it is called “key” (clave literally means key in Spanish).
What I mean to say is that if you do not have the clave, you have nothing. In other words, if you do not know how to create a musical idea on top of a rhythmic structure that gives you the support of all this, you won’t understand anything, because everything would all fall down around you.
Therefore, take note, it is not that it is important, it is absolutely vital! Without the claves, we have nothing, I grab onto all the claves of my music. For instance, I grab onto the claves of the alegría from Cadiz, to the claves of the Soleá, to the claves of the seguidilla, to the claves of the tangos, to the claves of the fandangos, from all these rhythms I get an indispensable
support so that I can later create structures that are as formal as the ones in Jazz, of 32 bars, or of the blues.
Because I am in love with the structure of the blues and I have used it a great deal in my music with the rhythms and the claves of Flamenco. I mean, I do a blues with Bulería, with Soleá, blues with tanguillo, and what I mean is that what gives me the support to be able to create everything is precisely the rhythm, therefore it is not that it is important, it is vital.
Even though later within the world of Flamenco, there are some styles that do not need “rhythm” between brackets. A fixed rhythm that can be styles that I love as well, that I usually record on my records. They can be the granadina, the malagueña, or the mineras, the tarantas. They are free styles when you learn them, and above all this is learnt when accompanying Flamenco singers.
You realise that they have a certain time. But it is a time that is stretched; it is a structure that is not subject to a stable subdivision, between the hits. But it does have a time, and this for me is also incredible, because when you see a Flamenco guitarist, and a Flamenco singer singing a minera, or a granadina, you understand that they are going to the limit. But there is a time that is breathed with the form of the singer, it is lengthened or shortened this melisma that they do. This for me is very interesting within Flamenco, because it is like going to the limit, but it is not the limit exactly.
other side of the Atlantic, I have done things which are livelier, which I love because I feel them in such a natural way. It is a case of now we are going to play a tango, or I start to play a Flamenco Rumba and I can groove along with the Cuban Rumba, or the Cuban Son. We are complete brothers there. There is the point of total inflexion in the songs that are 4 by 4.
Even the tanguillo from Cadiz, for example, has a lot to do with Afro Cuban music, with all the 6/8 and 12/8 Afro. Therefore, I also see that the claves link together. The Cuban clave that is 2-3 (|..*.*…|*..*..*.|), is 5 hits right? Well the Flamenco claves are also 5 hits! For instance the Bulería clave has 5 hits (|*..*..|*.*.*.|) 1(23) 1(23) 1(2) 1(2) 1(2). If you really begin to investigate and delve profoundly into the rhythms of each culture, you become aware that we are not that far apart from each other.
In addition, I believe that the rhythmic element of Flamenco, arrived through Persia, throughout this region of gypsies that was brought from India that were nomadic, I also see the rhythm coming from Africa. I see it clearly, in the rhythmic claves, it very much comes from Africa and gets distributed everywhere, and in each region we use it in a certain way. You start to turn it over and make it yours, but there are many similarities!
RG: Well. Within the clave I want to ask several questions but first. We were
talking about tanguillos and this comes from the habanera.
CD: Well, for me the tanguillos do not come form the habanera. No, because
the habanera is in another time signature, the tanguillos is in 6/8, and the habanera would be in a 4/4, you know?
RG: The reason I say this is because Francisco Núñez wrote on the Ida y
Vuelta and he was writing about the Return and he said…
RG: No, no, what he said was,
“In Flamenco the strength of the habanera rhythm is providential, there are so many styles that are based on its rhythm that it would surprise more than most about the presence of Cuba in the art of Flamenco and that is was so wide spread”
Talking a little about the habanera that comes from Cuba could you comment briefly on…
CD: Yes it is true that the tanguillo has a lot in common with the habanera
because it depends how you look at it rhythmically, you can play it as a habanera o as a tanguillo. You see what happens is that the rhythm of the tanguillo is a very, very open rhythm that allows you to put other rhythms within it.
In other words, use the polyrhythms, I do this in my music a lot, we are playing a tanguillo and I cross to a 4/4 or cross to Soleá crossed with Bulería, or Bulería, because it is a rhythm that permits you to do this, depending how you subdivide it within itself. You would understand me perfectly being a percussionist; you can cross from one to another (sings example).
I can put it into Bulería, into Soleá crossed by Bulería, into Rumba, it is a rhythm that is very open and that can go into many other rhythms.
RG: Then there are some rhythms that lend themselves to jazz more than
others? What I mean is Flamenco rhythms that can be utilized.
CD: Man, this is something that we started some Spanish musicians, and I
the Rumba, or the tangos (Flamenco tangos), they are rhythms that work well.
I also like to write jazz standards with Flamenco rhythm, by composers such as (Theolonius) Monk, above all, or Bill Evans, or Wayne Shorter, which I did in my last album that is soon to be released. In the end, I like to adapt music already written by American composers. And the truth be told, the party rhythms go really well with them, although, I also love to play
rhythms that are slow such as the Soleá. The Soleá seems to be a marvellous time to express oneself in.
It’s like if we talk about the Soleá, for me it is like we are talking about the blues, more from the roots. In actual fact, I love to do blues crossed with Soleá. I consider myself in love with this mix, from the structure of the blues it permits you to go creating and recreating once and again within this “structure”, always between brackets and with the Flamenco sense that the Soleá has.
RG: It’s very personal no? Because you have a song, Mañana de Reyes…
CD: Mañana de Reyes is a tanguillo, there is a Soleá that is called “Soleá
Blas” that is sung by Blas Cordoba and that is a blues crossed by Soleá. It is a blues that uses the structure of blues but in the Phrygian mode so that the singer can sing it, and would be the “turnaround” of the last four bars of the blues, what I use is like the Flamenco “turnaround” of the Soleá.
There is a harmonic change there but there is a mix that for my way of understanding is very natural and is perfect. I have used this in more than one record and I think that I shall continue using it because it is a majestic formula. Blues and Soleá together.
RG: You have talked about Blas Cordoba, for you, what importance do
CD: Dance, of course. I hold a great deal of importance. For me, Flamenco
song has been with me since I remember, because my father was a great aficionado, and this in my house was always playing. Every day I heard Flamenco since I was young. I for instance would have loved to be a Flamenco singer. I think that it is a gift from nature to sing Flamenco, because I think it’s incredible how you can control the voice in this manner and to be able to do these melodic turns that are so impressive that some singers do. For me it is very important. As musicians we begin to play music, music and more music and we forget that the voice is the first instrument of them all.
Rather rhythm and voice are the two first instruments; or rather the clave and the voice are the first instruments that we had.
For me I love it, because in addition the voice of the Flamenco singer is a voice that is ancestral. It’s a voice that can transport you in time, and in space and, I don’t know, is a way to communicate with the voice separate to the music. I love to take a singer in my group, I almost prefer to take a singer than a saxophonist for example that does a solo. I very much like to accompany Flamenco song.
I like very much the brushstrokes of the voice, and top of this I have had the luck to find a singer like Blas Cordoba who has been working with me for about six or seven years and for me is one of the most beautiful singers I have heard in my life. Because normally, a Flamenco singer can be harsh and aggressive, and Blas Cordoba makes it smooth and sweet like fairy floss, you know? Therefore, perfect. Therefore I love him for my group for the contrast but not in the traditional sense.
definitive, there is like nothing else. So, I like to take this colour as well in the group and apart from this when you have a dancer that comes out, you win over the audience. It’s the conductor if you like, and in my concerts I use it with very concrete brushstrokes because the dance is really the great protagonist when done live. A concert takes on a character more of a spectacle when we have a dancer.
I also like this because I enjoy when I go out on stage, and the audience enjoys themselves, and I love the dancer that comes with me, Tomasito, because he is a young man that is seeded in this tradition, that has more than enough timing because he has all the rhythms from Jeréz. He knows all the ancient traditions from Jeréz, but having all the modernity of having grown with Michael Jackson, and all the modern rock and pop. And he also knows how to combine these claves as well. So for me, in my group, I think that this is also key. So, for me voice and dance has been with me all my life and it simply is.
RG: But you have also done collaborations with Martirio and Marta Valdés.
Quite distinct, no?
CD: Yes, of course. I have also been very interested in popular Spanish
music for example. I have been interested in extracting information and drinking from the fountain of knowledge that has occurred around me, here.
Because I remember that one-day all of a sudden, many years ago, I realised one thing. I was learning how to play Autumn Leaves, All The Things You Are, heaps of songs that I love and today I keep playing, American Standards.
But, I realised that these tunes had been played by musicians in the 40´s because these were the songs that were in fashion, they were the songs that they had heard, so in other words, they simply versioned their popular
music. And soon I began to discover Spanish music, because when I was young my mother always had the radio playing, and my mother was always singing the Spanish songs, there were some beautiful melodies. There were songs that if all of a sudden you rescued them from their original state. All this music might bring all the images of the dictatorship, but perhaps not.
I am sure that these musicians and these writers of that period were very strong, because it was a time where writers and musicians met in café theatres, did collaborations together. Things that today are more complicated to do because we tend to do more multimedia but each person in their own house. So I realised that there are many songs, very beautiful songs that if you took them out of their context and you played them as a jazz musician that disregards all those rules, and you simply took the melody and the harmony and you interpreted it as you liked it, it then sounded good to you.
I discovered that there are many from popular music to traditional Spanish music and this took me to bolero, and took me to Latin-American music, and the songs from Latin America and I believe that the musicians of Latin jazz have some Latin standards that are marvellous and that I would love to recuperate.
I play tunes like “Gracias a la Vida”, that I believe is one of the most
marvellous songs written in Spanish. I think it is as valid as All The Things You Are or Autumn Leaves, and they have this structure that is at times more interesting, because the Spanish song, the structure that we
encounter is never going to be 32 bars. It always has more than two parts, so they are more complex. And the words are very strong, they have a lot of meat shall we say, it has a lot of strength, all that was written in that period. I would love to recover all of that, and I love to play all those tunes
RG: Therefore, it’s a bit like… for example Chucho Valdés and Jerry
Gonzalez look towards their roots a lot, they use it in their work. For you is it important to have this Flamenco root or to fuse it and move ahead or is it a combination of both?
CD: No, no, no. Look, if I am a musician I consider myself a fairly eclectic
musician. I like a lot of things, and really even though in the last decade I focused mostly on the music that I have recorded in the style that I have recorded, I like to continue discovering and changing because it is what enriches me. In other words, I am a musician that cannot play the same